Same thing applies during acceleration which is the reason why its so easy to do stoppie’s and wheelie’s. Ask him if he wants to play that game, and you shouldn't be surprised if he says no. The first time I learned about the 50/50 ideal was an article on BMW Films, the ones with Clive Owen and various other celebrities. According to your son, about half of your shots should be on target, however, given your son is not Steph Curry, you will have again a chance to explain him how the relative size of the basket narrows down the chances that you hit the target about half of the times. The car is very skittish on corners, both entry in and exit. Thank you for not providing any data or reasons to back up your claims, and instead call me names. Probably not. When we know and hear about events, they become familiar and intensity of the discussion cements the event into our memory more intensely. ;). Look at the BRZ-FRS-GT86. To achieve the highest lateral G-force, we must load the outside tyres equally front-to-rear. $P(\text{"a tie"}) = 1\cdot\frac{1}{2}\cdot\frac{1}{2} = \frac{1}{4}$, $P(\text{"a win"}) = (1\cdot\frac{1}{2}) \vee (1\cdot\frac{1}{2}) - P(\text{"a tie"}) = (1 - (1- \frac{1}{2})(1- \frac{1}{2})) - \frac{1}{4} = \frac{1}{2}$, $P(\text{"both lose"}) = 1\cdot\frac{1}{2}\cdot\frac{1}{2} = \frac{1}{4}$. I also found it humorous that some posters are essentially yelling that “OMG GT86 HANDLES SO WELL BECAUSE IT’S SO WELL BALANCED BLAH BLAH BLAH.” First of all, you have no idea what you are talking about. (Lapsing into math), of course the probability of each outcome is not 50% just because there are two possibilities. The mechanic guy above already told you that that’s bullshit. Not only are you wrong about the probability of getting first guess of a one digit number correct as others have pointed out, you also say that each subsequent guess after a first incorrect guess has a lower possibility of being correct (you say it becomes a 1/3 chance, then on until a 1/10 chance), which is the exact opposite of correct. However, this is purely from the consideration of traction and doesn’t take into account centrifugal forces acting on the car through the turn. For the longest time, companies like BMW advertised that they have a perfect 50/50 weight distribution. My guess is that the added weight and maybe a change to the distribution may be responsible, but I still don’t know. Also, the scenario of a guess being correct is no different from the scenario of guessing correctly. It depends how many prizes are offered too, and how lots are sold. There are very few cars with more weight to the back ( ex Mercedes gt r) but still around 50:50. (under breaking) as well. Please show me the original quote. Take a marshmallow (or some small candy that you know he likes), show it to him, then put it into one hand behind your back and say: "If you pick the hand with the marshmallow, you can have it. By using our site, you acknowledge that you have read and understand our Cookie Policy, Privacy Policy, and our Terms of Service. Thanks in advance. – Car lover. Each ticket is either a winning one or a losing one, and there is only one winning ticket. My final question to you: Why does every Le-mans prototype, every F-1 car and even that crazy Delta Wing project all have more weight in the rear? We race on multiple surfaces usually wet clay limestone with warer we get plenty of slip and ruts but after a few laps rubber lays down and advans 048s grip well ! the BRZ is less prone to do so however as it does not have a rear bias spring rate it tends more toward under steer conditions while cornering. Why does "nslookup -type=mx YAHOO.COMYAHOO.COMOO.COM" return a valid mail exchanger? You can make a car that is FR handle as well as a MR. No where does it say that a car that is 50/50 is bad. On a vehicle (I’ve tested it on my bicycle but this would apply the exact same way on a four wheel vehicle if it had such a high center of gravity) IF you pitch 99% of the weigh forward to front wheel, you need to stay off the rear brake. Virtually all modern road race cars have somewhere between 55-65 of their mass over the rear wheel. Explain how in the lottery there are millions of losing tickets to the point where he would have to find the red piece not in a small bag, but in a huge garbage bag that was packed full of blue pieces but still only had one red piece. @RustyCore Your "definition"of probability applies only when all outcomes are equally likely. Weight dist 47/53 front/aft. I read your blog above with interest. My guess is that the added weight and maybe a change to the distribution may be responsible, but I still don’t know. It seems that in the context of the right answer, from an outside point of view, he's using the principle of insufficient reason; he's simply made a logical error solving the right question. "I figure my chances of winning are about the same whether I play or not". Can I write my signature in my conlang's script? How do I figure out how many monomer configurations I need for my simulation? Under braking, i think what happens is the cars tend to oversteer because the load on the rear axle tends to reduce to almost zero. In case that guy is still reading this, you have to understand that there are some KEY differences between a motorcycle and a car. I hope you still monitor this blog. If you don't buy any tickets at all, what's your chance of winning? a balanced weight distribution would do neither as it would lose traction at the front and rear equally. Front weight transfer is 50kg, rear is 150kg. Again, without teaching, you might start asking about what's the practical use of probability if you exclude "PROBABILITY" from it and just list outcomes. What is its weight distribution? Ask him to put some of his lawn-mowing money down...and see if he really believes in his thesis. It has a 50/50 weight distribution. As someone mentioned earlier, 911’s are the way that they are as a result of tradition, and perform admirably IN SPITE of their design. The fastest cars i race are a vw with a ls3 a bmw 1hzj i think ?? I also wouldn’t be surprised if the weight distribution of your car is quite good. They’re working to reduce inertia which is the big drawback to having the engine stick out beyond the wheel axis. 50 Plus Market Facts & Distribution Info; Community Partnerships; Distribution Area; Multiple Solutions; Online Specifications; Print Specifications; Video Solutions; Submissions . Is it known to have these handling characteristics? If there are ten number in the lottery it's 1/10 ... 10% ... ten "per cent" is 10/"per cent" = 10/100 (cent =100) = 0.1. Consider a game where two players have to guess heads or tails when a coin is flipped. They actually reduce net effective brake force by adding these kits…arghhh. The radius of each conductor is 1.6 cm. weight distribution 67/33 front aft so we can see it is nose heavy! I am relatively sure that my suspension, and traction control systems are not set up even remotely well for the automatic. Just sticking with those lovely Porsches everybody loves the 911’s are 2+2 seaters with very small front luggage compartment. Bayesian statistics allows you to choose another prior. i dont have a motorcycle but i have a bicycle. Suppose you have a variety of RWD vehicles and to simplify (and to better understand what issues you’re actually dealing with) you are doing separate testing of acceleration-traction, braking-traction,and cornering-traction. This is one reason why even mid/rear engine sportscars don’t have their engines positioned all the way back. But they may want you to believe that anyway. I disagree somewhat but it’s a matter of taste. For example Audi A4/5 has a poor balance but good suspension while bmw 3 series has a good balance but a cheaper suspension (the front grip is still good). Another answer suggested illustrating this with dice, and that could be one way: use dice, or even just a coin, to figure out the frequencies of different events. If Sofia is fat you might want to put the battery on the drive side. Learning how to manage these intense feelings is probably a useful part of the discussion and education about probabilities. Either you win or you lose. Good engineering obeys the laws of physics and Mazda continues to stay true to this principle by reducing weight in their vehicles. The front wheels lock and you cant steer plus the bike begins to do a “stoppie” (opposite of a wheelie.) guy brought it up, yes most cars have larger front brakes then rears cause they do more work and thus generate more heat BUT this is not always the case. Was the suspension rebuilt? If it's a banana it can only be a banana. No one with a competent understanding of basic physics can confidently say that 911’s are the way that they are because it is ideal. This the way I see it. Once I’m back on the throttle, the power to the rear again turns the car into a mild oversteerer as I throttle steer to track out. Trump Administration To Roll Back Draconain Obama CAFE Standards. I have to ask you, if you try to think back to where you first learned that a 50-50 balance is optimal, where did you learn it from? – understeer = positive stability. This seems like a confusion in semantics. so I guess the author should thank you for proving his point with your own example. The original 911 had skinny equal sized tires on all four corners and a suspension that wasn’t tuned as well as today’s cars. It is about where your feet are. I’d really like to hear more on this topic. This illustrates that there are more than two outcomes, even though nine of the ten outcomes are all losing. It may be more advantageous to have 55% rear but in reality this is not achievable for a practical 5 passenger vehicle so 50/50 is the closest we can get to perfection without sacrificing practicality, Very good discussion! Keeping the MX-5 at a 50/50 weight balance allows the driver to have a smoother and more connected experience only adding to the fundamental freedom the driver has behind the wheel of a Mazda. – Better acceleration as weight is over the driving wheels (rear). Probably not.”, which makes you sound simply retarded. Winning the lottery is far more exciting than the concept of wasting money on the ticket. Most of the time spent on a race track is not in the corners, but accelerating and decelerating between them. I was able to go 83 MPH around a 35 mile an hour recommend speed turn where in the BRZ I could only go 67. That's all the things that can happen. Every state has its own COVID-19 vaccine distribution plan. As you say above, rear weight bias helps get you around a course faster but does demand considerably more skill and attention from the driver to keep it on track and pointed forwards. My personal favorites were my 1971 2.2 Porsche 911 E! If not, what changed to cause this? The Miata is, and I wish I still had it instead of this awful thing. “Porsche engineers are GODS ” (Be forewarned, there is no scientific data ahead. Excellent article. My car has a rearward weight bias and is mid/rear engined. I’m not totally sure what you mean. : Congratulations for engaging in discussions about maths with your children! Nose tucks quicker (lighter front), gets pointed faster, you get to hit the gas sooner. I want to offer a game to play with your son that he would almost definitely understand and would impart the principles of probability (and the futility of gambling at the same time). But tell me about your single seater. East Godavari Collector D. Muralidhar Reddy has said that a team of 50 surveyors has been deployed for distribution of house site pattas to the … Distribution of Low temperatures for 50 states Fahrenheit The skewed distribution is asymmetrical because a natural limit prevents outcomes on one side. Like your child it seems. The cars judged to hamdle the best were the MX5 (not suprising) and Ford Laser GTX. Motorcycles are not much different from bicycles physically speaking. It only takes a minute to sign up. - Yakima DK, Adjustable end-links for classic muscle cars, California looks to remove freedoms after Kevin Hart crash, The shocking importance of an Oil Catch Can. Porsche can make things work. Another approach could be to get out of house to some basketball court and take shots blind-folded. You know, many formula cars that are not as heavily regulated have a ballast that can be moved to better suit the track. It is in some ways amazing that any manufacturer would make a street car that is so prone to oversteer; very few street cars today have any at all (at least cars tuned for the north american market dont). Because in reality, they don’t sell many sports cars compared to their other models. On the other hand if you distinguish the coins, then you end up with 4 possibilities (2 heads, 2 tails, A heads B tails, A tails B heads) and those are all equally likely. How to determine if MacBook Pro has peaked? If everything else is equal, a car should be able to accelerate and stop quicker, but overall cornering ability will be reduced as the rear weight bias increases. Say that a player wins if they guess right the next outcome. The 50/50 car rotates at the center of the car which makes for a predictable drift but a less efficient rotation and thus a slower speed in a turn, Having a good weight distribution to begin with is the foundation for a fast car. This would mean that the front end weight is 1176lbs and a rear weight of 1624lbs and lets say that this hypothetical car has a center of gravity height of 15″ above ground and we will say that this car has a Wheelbase of 100″. 50/50 is a common default whenever there is a sense of uncertainty. Such cars have such high levels of grip and downforce, that when you eventually go too far, you’ll be traveling at such speeds that you have to be Ayrton Senna (or atleast a very sharp driver) to even have a chance to not crash. Then offer the bag to your son, disallowing him to look inside and telling him only that the bag contains blue and red pieces of colored paper and if he draws a red piece, he wins. And are the tires ratioed to its weight? If porsche decided to build a competitor for 911 around a car like cayman and gave same same amount of resources, materials and time to it, it would have ended up being a significantly better performance car than 911. If there are a hundred numbers in the lottery it's 1/100 = 0.01, If there are a thousand numbers in the lottery it's 1/1000 = 0.001. Roll the dice many times - say 50 or 60 - and write down the number of wins. This is ideal for my driving style, as I like to brake early, turn in early, and start the car rotating, and power through the corner. Mathematics Educators Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for those involved in the field of teaching mathematics. Again an entire white paper here. As you increase the lateral forces (increase cornering speed), a front-heavy car would lose traction at the front, causing understeer. It’s a smart fortwo and I’m trying to modify it to see what I can achieve. You demand someone to prove you wrong with examples and stats, while what you’re stating is, sorry, but a bit daft. I mean, who would buy a car that you couldn’t even fit a golf bag into! You should also know that every car that has won a grand prix or Le Mans race has had a rear weight bias since the late 50’s, and race car engineers have never looked back since. Choosing a specific number 0-9, you have a 1/10 chance of it being correct. What seems like a sweet deal at first will quickly turn into a no-win situation. It is 530 hp space frame and uses the audi quattro drive train. 4. the longer wheelbase also reduces the angular velocity of the oversteering car about its normal axis by increasing the radius of the rear end from the normal axis. My recommendation is to make a large change at one end of the car and see what happens. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. at one end, do it and take a test drive. As for the cornering, that’s a different story as the author has pointed out. My BRZ hardly rolls at all in a turn, but comparatively it also doesn’t turn at all, so there’s that as well… Both were bone stock. you can not adjust the shocks (damping, rebound) and install different springs but tweaking camber, toe etc is obviously allowed. My 350z for instance is shared with Nissan’s (Infiniti) G-Series sedans; a much more practical car. I did KWs coilivers and have the drop about level on all four corners. Any way i havd just built a vz monaro with ls1 1200kg 270rwk we are limited to 225 tyre size its our only restriction . question ( how i got to this article in the first place): i am researching to find ‘the perfect foundation’ car. this was done to make the car more stable and predictable over bumps/uneven surfaces. There IS a context in which 50:50 weight distribution is IDEAL. it is an aspect of the suspension tuning. It had much better balance than my current car despite being a 20 year older design, it gave much more confidence, was more stable under braking, better over kerbs (which is not only because of balance) and you could attack harder. The problem is that, they just don’t handle very well at the limit. Through exploring this with him he can come to understand that not all game states are equally likely. With few exceptions, street cars are generally tuned to have understeer regardless of their weight distribution – they are just safer that way… Beka, Please read some of the above comments because some of the things you are talking about have been discussed. You could even sweeten the deal by having some candy as a reward, which will serve to further drive the point home later. Just to clarify a few misunderstandings on the part of many posters here…. No clue what you're getting at with the "choose a number" thought experiment - the odds of guessing 0-9 correctly in one guess is 1/10, not 1/2. The heavier rear wants to comes around. Now a rear bias certainly gives you more grip out of a turn which is of course an advantage, Anyone who disagrees with me just lift off the gas after apex and see what happens. Surely, pushing the car through a high speed sweeper at racing speeds must have taken a substantial amount of skill and courage. When done correctly, the car feels balanced. Crack in paint seems to slowly getting longer. The Principle is not applicable in this situation, since we do know how many winning tickets there are in the lottery, and how many tickets are possible. What does “Four selected students are not born in the same months” mean? Mate, you’re mumbling about how informal I am while adressing your raging negligence. @Noiralef Indeed, half of the fun of the joke is that while everyone knows it's a ridiculous way to calculate the probability, It answers the "why?" You used race cars as examples for why 50/50 weight distribution is not ideal. You can look for that information if you dont believe me. Between the high center of gravity and the short wheel base, MUCH more weight is dynamically transferred during braking events. It’s not that the over all distubtion is poor, it’s that a large amount of weight is behind the rear axle. But with similarly well sorted suspensions I’d be reaching for the rear-weighted option if trying to set the fast qualifying times or win races. Present a deck of playing cards. Demonstrate that, in a sea of blue pieces, the chances of him picking a red piece at random is incredibly slim, so even if the only possible outcomes are either winning or losing, it's much more likely to lose than to win. Once again it’s me, the motorcycle mechanic. When the game ends, sit him down and dump out the bag in front of him. Maybe I should have used a Porsche 917, a GT-40, Maserati MC12 or even an Ferrari 458 – all of which are heavily rear biased and very fast. Theoretical/academical question - Is it possible to simulate, e.g., a (unicode) LuaTeX engine on an 8-bit Knuth TeX engine? Randomperson : You are simply not able to modulate your front brake , I’m a cyclist too and on road bicycle , main breaking force will be always from the front . Here’s a good way to test a mechanics knowledge on something other than fixing things: ask one what causes your rotors to warp. You are certain to win. Calculate the following: A. Every statement made in favor of more weight over the rear cited the 911 as evidence in favor when in fact the 911 is the PERFECT example of more weight over the rear being a problem. This is what they had, all that they had that day, and I wanted it right then. In order to do that, you'd need to delve into expected values taking into account the probability of winning, the price of the tickets, and the prizes you can potentially earn. This causes mechanical advantage in a turn, which causes oversteer issues. 4: well below the 10k $ mark (I have other passions besides owning a fast streetcar ;-). U.S. Is most of the weight near the CG (center of gravity) or not? The article is wrong. Do you drive a BMW? P.s. Is it on original springs? If your car is so great, there is no need to defend it. The suspension is also important. My not liking it is why I am looking at these things. The engineers are the ones that design and change certain aspects of the car (tires, suspension, aero, etc) in order to make the car more “balanced”. That’s why it’s rear-engined. The bottom line is that a 50/50 car is easy to drive for a novice an feel “lighter” but it will never beat an equal rear bias car around a road course. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. And now it is an iconic design/brand, so they’re sticking with it as their flagship (after trying to phase it out and replace it with the front-engined, water-cooled, V8-powered 928 in the 80’s-90’s). Battery in the front trunk, suspension tuning, wider rear tires, etc. Acceleration, breaking ability, and ability to get power to the pavement, are also very important when it comes to a cars ability. :), One thing to make the "game" more like the lottery is to give him 10 pieces of candy to start with, and every time he loses, he has to give up a piece of candy, and every time he wins, he gets 5 pieces of candy. "there is a 50% chance to win at the lottery". As a result it develops understeer in slow corners where lateral G is not high. Instead of providing any sort of answer, walking your son through reasoning it out himself, providing counterexamples to keep him thinking, will result in a far deeper understanding while likely giving him pride in finding the answer himself (encouraging future curiosity and discovery). on bicycle we have two brakes, front and back. They would sell even less if they were even more impractical. Before you post telling me how wrong I am, please try to think how you first learned that a 50-50 distribution is ideal and if that source was creditable. Especially for your 13 year old. In road cars this might be a lesser problem as manufacturers are not limited with the size of tires they can use, but racing categories are limited, therefore weight distribution is a huge factor. On entry, mild trail braking turns the car into a mild oversteerer and helps turn in. They try to spread the drivetrain between the front and the rear of the car using rear diff or transaxle and we are happy because it’s not a cheap and slow 1970’s Fiat with more weight on the front. "I'm thinking of a number, a digit, between 0 and 9, guess what it is, at first you're 50/50 of being right or wrong" - what you refer here is Principle of insufficient reason already explained in another answer. That was a different car, with 80s style driver positioning (driver sitting in the front, engine closer to rear wheels). Editorial Subjects Calendar; Editorials, Articles, Local Events, or PSAs; Insertion Order; Videos . Note that "no, the chance for X is 50%: either you X or you don't" is a quite common meme / joke (at least on twitch.tv). But in a steady state corner, a car with a light rear will tend to understeer. But to truly take advantage of weight shifts and higher performance, a rear distrobution bias is favorable. As long as those rear wheels don’t break traction the car is tip-top. He is obviously wrong, me being the educated father and him the child with silly ideas. 5: not a gas guzzler during normal rides. http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-reviews/road-tests/2012-porsche-911-carrera-s. Porsche is moving closer and closer to 50/50 and it is not becoming slower by any means. You are not an expert nor are you educated enough to comment on said topic. 911s still have rear engine layout because this is a tradition and the history of the 911 brand. Definition N50. Every car has a center of rotation, Can anyone guess where this is on a rear bias car? A simple proof of that is that only a handful of people had ever won the lottery, not half of the players. "There are two outcomes, therefore it is 50/50" assumes that the outcomes follow a uniform distribution (and that is in fact the assumption of the Principle of Insufficient Reason). He's describing a component that goes into computing probability: the number of possible outcome states. So overall to get maximum cornering speed closer to 50-50 is ideal so that all tyres are at their max grip. How to explain the sample space of Monty Hall problem? If you care about how a car feels and how fun it is, you’ll go for balance! An uneven front-to-rear weight distribution mid-corner means that we are overloading one of the outside tyres more than the other, and thus wasting grip of the less-loaded tyre. Many people think that a 50-50 distribution is the end-all and most optimal setup for performance, which is simply not true. I knew I would regret it, but not this much…. Problem is that there isn’t much at the back, other than a solid rear axle (with diff) and the fuel tank, while my leaf spring are also quite light, as they have 5 leaves not 9. Most judges in this state favor awarding each party fifty percent of the marital property, unless certain factors make a good case for an unequal distribution. I have also had several BMWs (e34 540i and e38 750iL) with near 50:50. Either you win or you lose. The fallacy lies in the outcomes being mapped, and not their likelihoods. So front and rear grip the same. But speaking anecdotally, the 50/50 weight and the slight steady state (aka skippad) minor understeer seem to translate well on the track. This car does not turn it plows. The reason cars and bikes have bigger front brakes is that under braking, the weight transfers to the front thus giving more grip to the front tyres. Cheers, Scott, I think there is a point of this that everybody seems to be overlooking.

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